marvelfandomcom-20200222-history
Talk:Avengers (1950s) (Earth-616)
Bad Guys So why did Nick let Kraven and Sabretooth join in the first place? --User:SaiyanElite (talk) 14:35, December 15, 2013 (UTC) :1) Because you need tough guys to have the job done ? 2) Because bad is a relative term ? 3) Because Nick Fury has an even more relative definition of bad ? 4) Because they both love money and murder ? Undoniel (talk) 14:52, December 15, 2013 (UTC) ::Those are bad and ignorant reasons. "Hey, I'm Nick Fury! Government Operative! I need a special black-ops team! Let's recruit some psychopathic murderers!" And all that while he could have gotten Wolverine, Cap, or some other non-murderer, psychopath, etc.--User:SaiyanElite (talk) 15:37, December 15, 2013 (UTC) Cool down man. Cap and Wolverine weren't available at that time. And Wolverine is kind of a psychopathic murderer, and Xavier recruited him as well. And you seems to have a strange opinion of Nick Fury. If he need someone efficient to get the work done, he will get them. Creed and Kraven are among of most efficient trackers, why Fury should restrain from use them for his own goals, as long as he can control them ? Reliable and/or efficient superhumans aren't something easy to find. It was in the 50's, not the recent days when there was millions of mutants, mutates and armor wearers on Earth. He will not be the first or the last to hire "bad" people in his "good" team. Undoniel (talk) 17:03, December 15, 2013 (UTC) I don't understand why you're saying "cool down man". Is having an opinion/disagreement an anagram for anger now? Someone efficient isn't a person like Kraven or Creed, like I said murderers, capable of doing anything for their own good. I find this short-lived comic series just a bad attempt at creating a larger world for the lesser-known ones. --User:SaiyanElite (talk) 18:07, December 15, 2013 (UTC) :You have stated that I was ignorant, which I find offensive, and no, "having an opinion/disagreement" isn't an anagram for "anger". And they are efficient, because they aren't only murderers but among the best trackers. Also, Kraven could have been not much a bad guy until he started to hunt down Spider-Man. What could be reproached to the team would be to have 3 trackers in the team, but as this is a black-ops team in the non-numeric era, that's maybe for the best. Undoniel (talk) 18:29, December 15, 2013 (UTC) No, you have misread. Where did I say I find you ignorant? I only said your reason was ignorant. I'm sorry you feel offended, but that's not my fault. With "cool down" I thought you referenced anger or some other displaced emotion. But BTTP. Making them able to track someone isn't per definition a good reason to add them to a black-ops team, that doesn't suddenly make them less hostile. Kraven's a bad person, he tortured his bro Chameleon constantly during their youth. Kraven would do anything for the excitement he gets during hunts. --User:SaiyanElite (talk) 19:34, December 15, 2013 (UTC) Well, Cyclops' X-Force (as well as other X-Forces but not that much) was a black-ops team composed at beginning only of trackers/killers. That's the logical basis of a black-ops kill-team: Trackers/killers and a few light elements/spies. But to get back on the fact of Dum-Dum and Nick hiring bad people to achieve his goals, they choice them for their abilities and powers. And they sure have some. Sure it wouldn't be my choice, but as I said, there weren't that much superpowered at that time, and most (all?) of the Invaders were deceased or lost, and the other American Super-Soldiers were rendered crazy by the Serum (Also, when he want, Sabretooth can be docile, and is efficient, it's a fact). To make it clear: Dugan and Fury get their job done and Kraven and Creed get their money/hunt/kill (without eventual personal motives against the targets). Not uncommon. Vanisher, Bishop, Spiral in X-Forces teams are "bad" guys who had their place in a way or other, and there is presumably a lot of other, especially in mutant ranks, but possibly in other teams. If Rogers was the leader, it would be weird (just by looking to his Secret Avengers black ops who was composed only of confirmed and penance heroes), but even him plotted with criminals with his Secret Avengers rebels, worked with the Punisher in them, and could have maybe accepted criminals if the Punisher hadn't kill them. Alignment and morality aren't the only factor in the creation of a team, and Dugan and Fury are far away from being moral beings, even if they are not completely amoral: They are committed to their goals missions. Undoniel (talk) 22:27, December 15, 2013 (UTC) The basis for a black ops team as you say yourself trackers and spies, not murderes etc like I said before. Punisher is seen as a criminal on the outside world, nightmare in the underworld and ally with his own rules to the hero-world. The conclusion of my question which ended in a discussion was : "Why did Nick Fury have criminals/murderers on his Black Ops team?" Your anwser (cropped): Nick Fury needed good trackers and not many heroes were available, thus he chose (murderers) Kraven and Sabretooth to fill in the roles. I still don't like this anwser, accepting a bunch of criminals who harmed a lot of innocents, to a team... Nah. This 1950's Avengers thing made me dislike the character of Nick Fury. It's obviously the end-product of a bunch of bad writers joining forces to make the ultimate failed baby. And that -- is my conclusion. Nonetheless thanks for your time and input, in this discussion, cheerio!--User:SaiyanElite (talk) 23:10, December 15, 2013 (UTC)